Ariel VromenBefore we were fortunate enough to speak to Michael Shannon about his starring role in The Iceman, a forthcoming biopic of the notorious contract killer Richard Kuklinski, we had a chat with the director Ariel Vromen over the phone, to discuss the complexities about taking on such an intense and naturalistic project.

Vromen, who hails from Israel, discusses the difficulties in getting this film made, his own fascination for the subject matter, while singing the praises of his lead man, admitting that without Shannon on board there would have been a good chance this movie may have never seen the light of day.

So what first attracted you to the story of Richard Kuklinski?
I saw a documentary on HBO about him and I had an empathy for this character and I didn’t know why I felt that way, which intrigued me to go and research more and find out what it is about this guy that I’m interested in.

How important is it to humanise Kuklinski?
He was a bad guy, there is no doubt about it, but at the same time there is something about human beings where we all want to find compassion, some redemption, even to people who do horrible things. He was a breathing human being, you know, but at the same time he was a monster, and it’s part of the Jekyll and Hyde in him. Part of him was a monster, and part of him was not. He was like a soldier to the mob, able to do those murders without feeling that fear or consciousness.

There was so much material for you to work with for this story, was that quite overbearing? Was there almost too much to work with?
No you’ re right it was very challenging because there are so many stories. You know, you can focus on the child, he has the upbringing of a killer, he was abused, hiding behind the church or the relationship with the parents. And then you have all the side of the family, a very interesting story, how do those guys not figure out what is going on? When I read, I had almost 1,200 pages of manuscript from the court and you find so much in the 20 hours of out-takes that I had, it was a very challenging story over 20 years and over 1,200 pages.

Did you have the chance to speak to many people who were around at the time, people who were actually involved in his life and his story?
Mainly from the people who were arresting him, the DA, for example. I didn’t speak to anyone in his family when making the movie, but what I did do is speak to the family after I’d finished filming.

There are few actors who could play Kuklinski as well as Michael Shannon manages, what is it that you think he brings to this role that no one else could?
He’s a very talented actor and he has a great range. He brings a very natural darkness and hate and anger, but he plays it with sympathy. But you know, Michael has a sense of humour but he was still able to explore the darkness. Physically too, you know, he is 6’5 and he has very menacing eyes. Not many actors carry all of that, especially not today.

I interviewed Jeff Nichols recently who has obviously worked with Michael quite often and he said that despite Michael being quite an intense actor on screen, off-screen he is really funny and charming. He must be such a pleasure to be around as well?
I couldn’t agree more. Seriously he is so fun to be with and he’s nice, he’s very compassionate and dedicated. I had to be with Kuklinski himself on-set, and then at the end of the day when you were out he was so hungry because he didn’t eat all day because it’s part of his method. He would always race to the nearest steak house and then you’d get to spend time with Michael, not Kuklinski.

Winona Rider is great too, but am I right in thinking that she only came in once Maggie Gyllenhaal became pregnant?
Yep. It’s one of the beautiful mistakes of Hollywood, and I had a lot of them in this movie, I can tell you that. A lot of talent dropped at one point, but things started falling into to place, and I’m very, very pleased with Winona to come and take on such a lead role and complex character.

In a way this story is as much about Kuklinski keeping this tale from his family as it is about him being a killer...
It’s a tragic love story. Interesting information I had got actually, was that in real life, the wife of Kuklinski… You know that scene in the movie when she is questioning him about what was going on, apparently in real life she kept doing that, she kept pushing and overdoing it. She didn’t question him too much because she knew if she did it too much he might snap, but one thing we could have done more in the film is focused on how much she questioned him. She would have been way more distraught. But that said, I’m very pleased with how we did it and pleased with Winona and that it was nobody else.

It’s an incredible cast that you have assembled because as well as the ones that you have already mentioned you could add Ray Liotta, James Franco and Chris Evans to that list. Was it tough to attract such a huge cast given the modest budget that you had?
[Laughs] That’s a difficult question to answer. Insisting, I guess. Luck too. At the end of the day it comes down to the script and to Michael Shannon. The story was fascinating to people who read it and they wanted to be a part of it. But Michael being involved, that was the icing on the cake for many. Plus constant nagging from me.

Do you think that without Michael Shannon this film may have never been made?
On one hand, making a movie with Michael Shannon was a challenge because he wasn’t a name, but at the same time having him involved helped us to rally so many beautiful actors. It’s a chicken and egg in this one. But the struggle to make a movie with Michael was a big struggle. We had to show people he could carry such a role and then we had to build names around him, and given the budget we had that was a challenge.

It was an interesting decision to cast David Schwimmer too given his comedic background and the type of movie this was. What did you see in him that suited the role?
I obviously had reservations, but I met David through the producer Avi Lerner and I remember feeling really worried about meeting him, and I went to that meeting with the idea that there was no way I could find a role for David, but again, he was great, he hired a make-up artist and created this look, the hair. I kept thinking of Woody Harrelson in Cheers, and we could do the same taking David out of Friends. I took a big chance, but sometimes as a director you have to do that. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it does damage, and in this case, David’s energy was exactly what we needed so it worked out.

The Iceman is your first directing job in six years – was that a deliberate break, or was the right material just not coming your way?
It’s not easy in Hollywood when you’re focused on a certain subject and trying to get a script about a hitman. But you know I’m writing my own material. I love thrillers and any kind of true story, I like dealing with human behaviour. I don’t think I’m going to direct any comedies any time soon. I hope the next one is sooner, but it’s all about choosing the right story.

Do you think The Iceman could be the project that really pushes you on in Hollywood, and gives you that reputation that will allow you to attract bigger budgets?
Yeah, but you learn that there is no such thing as an easy task in making a film. I hope that Iceman will open the door for me to approach certain cast and studios, and to give me the confidence that I can deliver. But getting anything really, it’s a very big challenge today. You’ll be very lucky to get a movie financed. But will it be an easier task? I don’t think so. But maybe more doors will open and people will trust me and want to work with me and think I can get performances out of casts.

Have you got anything in the pipeline?
I’ve actually started casting a new film called Narco, that takes place in Colombia about the DA hunt for the Narco-Submarines, and it’s an interesting story, a movie about trust, and one of the biggest drug busts of our time. There is whole world out there that nobody knows, with 70 submarines in the Colombian jungle, with drugs being transferred to anywhere.